Protein vs Carbs with Kevin Stock

Protein vs Carbs with Kevin Stock

Welcome to the Ancestral Mind Podcast! Today joining us again is Kevin Stock, a strict carnivore and self-experimental researcher, founder and CEO of Muscle Science and national level physique competitor.

In his chat with Colin he goes over the importance of Protein and some myths surrounding its nutritional value and function, gluconeogenesis, the nutritional properties of carbs and much more. Tune in to find out!



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[00:00:54] KevinStock: In order to optimize your diet, you have to

[00:00:56] ColinStuckert: have on a, you have to have Oregon's,

[00:00:58] KevinStock: you'd have to have this, this and this. [00:01:00] And thenpeople are like, Holy shit. It becomes a lot when I'm like, that's notancestral eating, right. If you have to

[00:01:06] ColinStuckert: like optimize everything, right. We couldn't have donethat in nature.

[00:01:24] all the way back to thebeginning you eat primarily Carmen were done. Is that in fact, give me theframework. What are you still currently doing? So we can kind of set that andthen we'll go into carbohydrate specifically.

[00:01:32] KevinStock: Yeah. So probably the framework for this. Carbohydratearticle was so 2017. I started doing basically all me, uh, you know, Itransitioned into it probably by mid 2017 was even basic basic.

[00:01:44] We just meet all 20. So the restof 2017, all 2018 through 2019, that's when I started writing this article. Andthrough that, I know I talked about, I did six months just beef and water, sixmonths, nose to tail three months or six months. I did like a [00:02:00]bodybuilding kind of protocol, which was just me, but I just.

[00:02:02] Ramped up what I ate. I did acutting protocol, which is me, but basically it was two plus years of nocarbohydrates. Besides what little amount am I getting liver or something likethat. And, you know, I wrote all about this journey and why I'm doing it andkind of some of the science behind it. And even like the ancestral point of viewbehind it kind of.

[00:02:20] Without fail. People are askingme about carbohydrates and what I thought would happen. I've done lots ofdifferent kinds of carb cycling in the past. And so I'm like, well, I'llprobably, this will happen. Probably this will happen, but I couldn't speakfrom any experience. Cause I mean, it'd been two plus years.

[00:02:35] I hadn't eaten anycarbohydrates. Like not even like a cheat, like Hmm. Which people think iscrazy for me, it's pretty easy because. No, I don't have a whole lot of thesocial influences or pressures that might make me deviate or anything.

[00:02:45] ColinStuckert: You're an outlier for sure, because I enjoy my, my carbstoo. Even if I'm being antisocial at times.

[00:02:51] KevinStock: Yeah. I mean, and something, we could probably talk about itcause like my girlfriends, she's a quote, unquote foodie. She loves food andloves to go to the same way. [00:03:00] And you know, so since the carb articleI have gone out and done. Eating some other things. Yeah. But up until thatarticle I had. And so some of the questions I posed in the article is like,okay, so we'll find this jar of honey this week.

[00:03:13] What's going to happen. Like,are my muscles going to explode? I'm going to feel great. I'm going to have anenergy crash or, you know, one question that a lot of people have, you know, Iwas curious about too, is. When you don't eat any plant based foods. So likebasically zero fiber, you know, you're obviously going to have microbiomeshifts in the gut.

[00:03:30] And so, Hey, what if I go eat abunch of fiber? Am I just going to explode? Like, am I going to have some GIdistress or what. So in an experiment, I did a, like two pints of blueberries.Two pints are in two avocados over the course of two days to see what wouldhappen from that perspective. And I did a full cheat weekend with my girlfriendwhen we went on a trip.

[00:03:50] And so I kind of wrote aboutthese experiments and carbohydrates. And so that's the backbone of like the artwith the, you know, the framework for the article.

[00:03:57] ColinStuckert: So after you did those experiments, then you went intowriting [00:04:00] about carbs, like kind of as the, that was like the kickofffor it. Okay. Yeah. So then start there, if you did those experiments.

[00:04:05] Can you give us like the cliffnotes was like each one different or was it like over or underwhelming and

[00:04:10] KevinStock: always amazingly, I think what makes it interesting? Is ithow underwhelming it is? Yeah, so kind of an interesting dichotomy, but so,cause a lot of my assumptions were wrong when I had the honey, I thought forsure.

[00:04:23] Have you had anyone that's oncarb cycling before you go like three days, no carbs that you have like a cheatday or that cheat day, like appetite, it goes up, energy goes up, mood goes up,like, you feel like a human being again. And then I didn't have any of that.So, and you know, some of the hypothesis are like, look, I'm so fat adapted I'mmuscles are pretty much full of glycogen.

[00:04:45] There was no like. My musclesdidn't weren't depleted. So there was no repleting I didn't crash off the carbsand I didn't have like an increase in hunger really. And I think a big part ofit is this more so than I, like anyone likes [00:05:00] to admit is there'sreally well addiction with carbohydrates and sugars.

[00:05:04] And I think after two years,plus of not having any like that addiction was like, I slayed the dragon. Andso when I had some honey, it was like, It was no big deal. Like, so it waspretty, you know, not that interesting. So, but that was over the course of oneweek. One of the things I pose is like, well, if I kept eating, you know,there's two tablespoons of honey every day.

[00:05:26] How long before that addictioncomes back, how long before I'm not quite as metabolically flexible. Uh, and sothere's a lot of questions that are unanswered, but from an acute influx of.Pure carbohydrates. It was like pretty, like not interesting. And with thefiber is a similar story. I had the blueberries and I had avocado and my GI wasjust fine.

[00:05:51] My knee, no change in bowelmovements. I actually, it wasn't my gassy or anything like that. Okay. It'slike, man, this is, this experiment I'm writing about is super boring, but[00:06:00] it's also interesting. Cause like one of the big fears people haveis when they eliminate five referrals, significant period of time.

[00:06:04] It's like, am I ever going to beable to go back to eat? Right. Another food. Uh, and I do think in something Ihave experienced is. I do have, I would say increased sensitivity to certainfoods that I think aren't necessarily right. Good for me. And I think it's agood thing where it's like the, body's trying to say, okay, if you need to knowa little about you're fine, where do you, yeah, I feel the pain a little bitmore.

[00:06:27] And I noticed things like one ofthe big things with this experiment was the cheat weekend. So I'm on the trainwith my girlfriend. We're going from st. Louis to Chicago and. She had coffeeand she squeezed it with artificial sweetener a little bit, and I've done a lotof it. And so I tried some of her coffee and man, I used to love artificialsweeteners.

[00:06:47] I was like, man, and freecalories with no big deal. Show them the taste of it was just to me, it waslike almost like repulsive. Like I just did not like this sweetness sensationof that. And so kind of one of the big takeaways from this [00:07:00] experimentwas this increased. Sensitivity or just like intuition kind of with foods to belike, I got my sweet taste buds back are, they're not bombarded with sugar allthe time.

[00:07:13] You can actually taste real,real sweetness tastes like. And so, yeah, it just like this whole relationshipwith food that, you know, I thought was not a bad thing necessarily. I wasn'tbad place, but I probably was in not a great place. My relationship with wasmore like largely healed after. A long time without carbs.

[00:07:31] Like I didn't have the cravings.And one of the things I mentioned in the article is also on that trip with mygirlfriend. I had some ice cream and people that know me in my history is like,I'm not like someone that would take like a bite of ice cream, be like, Oh, I'mdone. That's good. Like, I more like the calm person.

[00:07:46] I was like, all right, I'm goingto crush like a half down. Like yeah, kind of the all or nothing kind of gotin. So I had some more ice cream on the weekend and I was like, you know what?Like, It was good. I mean, because I'm a huge fan of ice cream, but like, Ididn't feel like I needed [00:08:00] to eat like a karma ice cream.

[00:08:03] So it was interesting how, uh, Ididn't realize how much of improvement I had with the relationship with food,which I actually think is like the underlying problem with a lot of nutritionor diets these days is this underlying relationship with food. Because evenwhen I was like eating a quote unquote healthy diet and doing like.

[00:08:21] You know, lean meats and a lotof vegetables, even in like, kind of like the bodybuilding days, carb cycling,things like that. There was like, it's a weird thing, which I thought wasn'tthat weird. But now looking back what it is is like, I wouldn't feel satisfied.And most of my stomach like hurt. Like I hate so much where it's like, yeah.

[00:08:40] And y'all, I'm like, how insaneis that? I would eat. I wouldn't feel satisfied until all my I'm in physicalpain. That means the food about the food too. It is, it is, it is the food andit's the food. Exactly. Right? Yeah. Cause the carbs, the sugar make you wantto eat more. Maybe not just for. You know, a [00:09:00] dopamine hit sometimesit's cause there's inadequate protein in the body.

[00:09:03] He just wants more

[00:09:03] ColinStuckert: nutrition, nutrition.

[00:09:05] KevinStock: Yeah. The factors. And I put my, you know what I thought Iwas already in a pretty good place going into this all meat diet and really, Iwas like, I wasn't even that good. So that just makes me think of like, A lotof people that haven't really focused on nutrition for very long, or probablyhave a lot bigger gap that could be fixed.

[00:09:22] ColinStuckert: Yeah. So a couple of things to unpack here. The one thingabout the sweeteners is interesting. It made me just realize if you think abouta company developing artificial sweetened for the market, what are they doing?They're trying to make something that is signaling sweet or a similar sweetnessto what people's pallet already is.

[00:09:38] Right? Right. So that's why whenyou remove the standard American diet and all the, like the fake foods, youhave the fake copies of the fake, this, or the frappes with 60 grams of sugarin them. When you remove that, you get down to that like natural human baselineof like, this is weird. You put in your mouth and you're repulsed by it becausethe range is so far off.

[00:09:55] Right. So that's an interestingthing about that. But there was something you said about the carbs and[00:10:00] your glycogen stores. I think we need to unpack that because that'san interesting way to think about it. So your theory is that because you werefat adapted and for me, this type of science stuff, I'm fuzzy on.

[00:10:11] So I like to kind of connectthings in a way that makes logical sense. So it seems like when you're more fatadapted, you can eat fat and protein and fill glycogen fast, like efficiently.Whereas, if you're just trying to cycle into the things you're talking about, you'reprobably not as fat as, and so that's why you have more of those highs becauseyour body's trying to like struggle to get glycogen or to get back to itsnatural homeostatic state.

[00:10:32] So that's probably why the carbsdidn't affect you that much. Right?

[00:10:37] KevinStock: I mean, that's exactly right. So if a standard American. Semistandard American diet person right now, meaning they eat a good amount ofcarbs and they work out. So they got some muscle mass. If they were just to cutcarbs out for the next three days, they would notice their muscles kind offlattened is kind of the word cause it's cause they're gonna lose glycogen.

[00:10:56] And then one of the reasons it'sgoing to lose its glycogen to not replenish it is because [00:11:00] thosemuscles are not good at using fat. And so your muscles will get better at usingfatty acids. And so, and the other thing is, is you also recruit replenishglycogen faster from protein stores, the longer you do it as well.

[00:11:11] And so there's this, there isresearch, uh, dr. Valtech, uh, kind of unpack some of this where. Once fatadapted muscle glycogen stores do like return to very much like a baseline. Soyou don't see though the flattening of the muscles, then the refilling, theflood, they stay much more constant

[00:11:27] ColinStuckert: because one's external base, right?

[00:11:29] One's like I got to eat carbsthrough my mouth. Therefore, whatever I change with what I'm eating isaffecting my internal chemistry and biology. Right. But the other one is, well,we all have enough fat to survive. I think even like somebody with 10% body fatis like, Tens of thousands of fat calories right.

[00:11:44] On their body. Right. Like,you're good. You're good to go for a while because that even for the leanest ofpeople can restore glycogen when they're fat adapted. So what are those actualmechanisms? I mean, there's like gluconeogenesis, there's a couple other ones.I don't remember which one's fat and which one's protein, but what are those [00:12:00]pathways that people can kind of think about?

[00:12:01] Like, okay, if I remove carbs,I'm eating more fat and protein. I'm getting my body used to that. I'mbasically trying to train these pathways. To get into that, the ability toreplenish glycogen without having to basically stuffed my face with carbs.

[00:12:13] KevinStock: Right. It is. You're just going to use less glycogen, likecartridges, carbohydrates, carbohydrates,

[00:12:20] ColinStuckert: unless it's fueled, you're saying,

[00:12:23] KevinStock: Oh, I said, you're gonna use more fatty acids as fuel.

[00:12:25] Ah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:26] ColinStuckert: So ketosis is that the primary mechanism basically andketosis. And what's the other one where, I mean, what's the other method forusing fat for energy? I think there's a certain mechanism it's called. I don'tremember, but there's ketosis. Right. But I believe there's another pathway.Well, so converts fat into energy.

[00:12:41] KevinStock: There is another pathway called the Cori cycle, which youmight be referring to. But overall, what it comes down to is you can break downprotein or you can break down fat and you can turn both into glucose in stores,tapping

[00:12:51] ColinStuckert: preferred though, right? Your body doesn't want to likebreaking down protein.

[00:12:53] That's what, from what I'veheard, but maybe you get better. Maybe you got good at doing that.

[00:12:58] KevinStock: Even like. [00:13:00] Fat can break down and turn intoglucose through the core cycle. And so fat can break down to fatty acids. Youcan use fatty acids as well. We can also use like people worried aboutgluconeogenesis because he turned protein to sugar.

[00:13:11] Fat can also turn to sugar. Sothere's a pathway for that uses the glycerol backbone to basically do that. Soyou can use both protein and fat to restore glycogen stores. So those are kindof like the two pathways that turn other macronutrients into sugar, you know,to store glycogen. And, you know, you can also use glycogen from the liver andthat can go into the blood into the muscles, but like once into the muscles,glycogen stays there.

[00:13:32] And as you use it, doesn't goback out into the bloodstream. That's the difference between liver? Cause ifyou store glycogen, the letter goes out into the bloodstream, right?

[00:13:39] ColinStuckert: So your body can use glycogen liver stores as energy, butit can't use muscle glycogen as energy or a different kind of energy.

[00:13:47] KevinStock: Well, let's just make it simple. Like, let's say your bicephas muscle glycogen in it.

[00:13:51] ColinStuckert: Right?

[00:13:51] KevinStock: You can use that. Do your bicep curls. But that muscleglycogen is basically an irreversible path. It can only be used in that.Whereas [00:14:00] glycogen in the liver goes into the bloodstream, butglycogen from your muscle is not going to be pulled out into the bloodstream.

[00:14:04] It's going to just muscle use.It's going to be used for just the muscle use. Yeah.

[00:14:07] ColinStuckert: Interesting, interesting. Well, you know, another thingpeople don't take into account is when you go out, you see people on Instagramand like fitness models. Male or female. And they're like, this is what I eat.And you see these typical videos, like what I eat in a day.

[00:14:20] And you take people that arelike sitting yeah. At home, not exercising, not going to the gym and like, wow,if that person eats that food, that way I should be doing that. And I'm like,okay, well, wait a second. Most of the people live in the gym, three to fourhours a day. How much like a gym do they have on their frame?

[00:14:33] Because of either they'vetrained hard or they've had anabolic help. And so they have these massivestores of glycogen. So these people could literally eat 300 grams ofcarbohydrates a day and then also be in the gym for three to four hours andpotentially burn all of it off. So talk, and then this is why you see so muchin fitness, the calorie deficit thing, like, like it's all about calories incalories out.

[00:14:50] That's the only thing thatmatters or whatever, you know, can you speak on that a little bit? Cause I justlove covering this topic cause it's such a prevalent myth. I feel like.

[00:14:57] KevinStock: Yeah. So one of the [00:15:00] biggest, I actually think wetalked about this one of the first, our first time we chatted was one of thebig misconceptions I had early on for a long time.

[00:15:08] I confused. Fitness for health.Oh yeah. And a lot of times, if someone is proves their body composition,meaning they build muscle and lose fat, that's gonna improve their health. Youcan get good body composition and not be healthy. Uh, and so it it's, it issomething, you know, that's, I fell out to that trap where I got really goodbody opposition, you know, naturally I was doing natural physique competitions,but I was not nearly as healthy as I am today.

[00:15:34] And so part of like, if we talkabout macro nutrients is. Mostly carbs come from plant based foods. You can getit fats from plants and animals. You can get protein from fats and animals, andthose are not equal. So kind of like you're alluded to calories aren't equal,but fats aren't equal and proteins aren't equal.

[00:15:52] So a lot of times, you know,it's very popular as that. It was popular, at least in the fitness circles wasif it fits your macros, [00:16:00] basically saying, if you read this manycalories, this much protein, it's much better as much carbs during the results.Right. And if used in a short term basis, a lot of times it's true.

[00:16:08] Like there's this professor didthis study who lost a bunch of weight eating just Twinkies, but. I mean, Idon't think at the point of this experiment was to say, look, I'm getting superhealthy on Twinkies, but there's certain short term things where if youmanipulate energy, surplus energy deficits, you can get certified results.

[00:16:25] But you know, if you lose 10pounds,

[00:16:27] ColinStuckert: not everybody though, too, at the same time, there'speople that do the diet Coke, like starved myself 500 calories a day dietthey're obese. And they quite literally can't lose a pound. Yeah. Right. Sothat's the other thing they're comparing your metabolic profile. To like somebodyin the gym who eats a certain way.

[00:16:42] And you're trying to say, well,if I just, as long as I do what they do, even though the entire machinery iskind of like saying, I'm going to look at like how to repair a Porsche to likerepair my, you know, like my Toyota or whatever. Like you kind of working oncompletely different systems in a way. Yeah.

[00:16:56] KevinStock: I mean, I mean, that's a good way to put it. And a lot oftimes what, [00:17:00] depending on what, like marker, they're measuring. Itis, Oh, I lost 10 pounds. But if that guy was 10 pounds, like eight pounds oflean body mass, and two pounds of fat, like he did as a negative move, like forhis body composition, even though he's lost two pounds of fat, I mean, losingeight pounds of lean body mass, it's not worth losing two pounds of fat,

[00:17:18] ColinStuckert: eight pounds extra, or like somebody built up wheresomebody that has almost none.

[00:17:22] Cause they never exercise. Like,you know, we just try to make these broad comparisons. Because humans are, arelike, but we're also very different in a lot of ways.

[00:17:30] KevinStock: Yeah. And he, I mean that example, he could be even moreinsulin resistant than he was, even though he lost weight. And normally youwould talk to him.

[00:17:37] Exactly. I mean, a lot of timesinsulin resistance is one of the things I focus a lot on, or you know, thismetabolic dysfunction. Cause I mean it underlies most of the problems.

[00:17:47] ColinStuckert: Let's talk about that as relation to carbs, then there'sactually a book that came out recently. I think it's why we get sick.

[00:17:52] It's I've been seeing a lot ofhealth influencers talking about it, and I'm pretty sure the entire thesis ofthe book, like I've read part of it is just insulin resistance. And so peoplehear [00:18:00] that. And how do you take insulin resistance as a problem too?How do I make different changes in my day to day life?

[00:18:07] Right. So that, I guess I can bemore insulin sensitive, sensitive, and I don't have insulin resistance. Andwhy, you know, like unpack that a little bit as

[00:18:15] KevinStock: far as I don't want to oversimplify it, but. I think there'san easy way to start improving insulin sensitivity, getting rid of insulin resistance.And it comes down to resistance training where you're building lean body mass.

[00:18:28] That's going to be a huge driverof increasing insulin sensitivity, because truth is most people are woefullylacking in muscle mass. And to get to a point where you have good amount ofmuscle to function and, you know, optimized. Insulin sensitivity. It's not eventhat much work you have to do to get there.

[00:18:46] So that's number one. And thennumber two is the carbohydrate issue. If you simply eliminate stressfullyreduced cut carbohydrates and eat mostly, you know, animal based protein andfat like that formula, that two step formula is going to work [00:19:00]wonders.

[00:19:01] ColinStuckert: Is that though in some cases, I mean, if people couldquite literally reverse chronic ailments by just doing those two things.

[00:19:07] And I mean, I would put thenutrition part first because some people that I like, I know personally peoplethat. They just won't exercise. Like, I don't know, like it's a mental block orwhatever it is, or as they age, you get more of that mental, like, I can't liftweights and I hurt pain. Like, I deal with that with my mom.

[00:19:22] I tell her like, mom, if you'resore in your muscle right now, like in a joint or some area where you're notsupposed to be sore or you're sore, cause you just pick something up and likeyour lower back might have a little bit of, that's probably your muscle fiberstearing and they're going to grow back stronger.

[00:19:34] And that's also strengtheningyour bone density when you have to stress your bones. Right? So it's like this,but it's this creep of. Addiction to comfort. And some people just have thisweird identity thing where they don't feel like they're not a meat head. Theydon't work out. Like that's a big problem in our society.

[00:19:47] I wish we had a solution forfixing that, but. They're both integral really?

[00:19:51] KevinStock: And I, to your point, I think you're right. And a lot oftimes it's someone would only do the one thing start cutting carbs and eat moreanimal based foods. I say animal based foods [00:20:00] because of what youtalked about earlier, plant protein, animal protein, there's big differences,especially in the branch amino acids and what comes prepackaged with it.

[00:20:07] And the fats are, are veryDEFAT.

[00:20:09] ColinStuckert: Acids are way different, right? Very different.

[00:20:11] KevinStock: And we can, we can talk down that path, but. A lot of times,and this is just kind of go into behavior change a little bit. But if you dothe one kind of Keystone habit, fix your diet. A lot of times that is a gatewayinto doing other things, but like I'm feeling better, I'm sleeping better.

[00:20:26] I got some more energy. I mightpick up some weights, you know? So a lot of times, you know, just focusing onone thing, a lot of times, a lot of other good things happen out of thatconsequence.

[00:20:34] ColinStuckert: Yeah. Well, there's also the, I mean, there's researchthat shows that exercise. Has no effect on weight loss for most people

[00:20:42] KevinStock: just straight up cardio.

[00:20:43] Yeah. I mostly caution peopleagainst it. Mostly doing a physique competition.

[00:20:47] ColinStuckert: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think about even weightlifting to anextent, cause I can see this myself when I'm training hard. If my kind ofmental state around the food choices I'm making, isn't like at the higher peak,[00:21:00] I'm way more likely to eat food.

[00:21:01] I shouldn't be eating. Rightbecause is that like, you wake up at midnight and you're like, man, I didn'teat enough calories. My body's craving nutrition. And I just go for like, well,we have cassava chips here that Allison likes, but I don't really usually eatthese. I'm just going to eat these at night.

[00:21:12] Right. So I just learned, andthis is me personally. Some people are different in this way. I've seen that ifyou don't have really good food choice habits, you're going to overeat andyou're going to over eat the wrong foods at the same time, because your body'slike, Hey, feed me. You trained me. I need

[00:21:25] KevinStock: to be here.

[00:21:25] That's a good point because Imean, whether it's lifting weights or cardio, they're both stimulate appetite.And if it's stimulating, you can do more damage than good. I mean, that's a,that's a perfect point. And one of the things that I think a lot about withcarbs. Is I think of it on a continuum, usually like meaning like pros and consand for most people that have some degree of insulin resistance, the spectrumshifts over here where it's basically all cons and you know, the small amountof pros would be to taste good for a second on your lips helps with social[00:22:00] situations, but from a health perspective, there's no real benefitscome out of them.

[00:22:04] Whereas. For someone that isvery insulin sensitive that has goals of body composition, whether it's, youknow, building muscle to the maximize or, you know, getting super lean andusing carbs as a way to help preserve muscle losing muscle mass. You know, I dothink there's there's pros, but there's also cons that come with those pros.

[00:22:21] Uh,

[00:22:21] ColinStuckert: yes, it's a slippery slope.

[00:22:23] KevinStock: It's a slippery slope. So it's hard for me. A lot of times wewant blanket statements. Like I want to fix my body. They want, they want tofix their body composition. And I've tried to explain them like their carbscouldn't be and ingredient in that path. But for most people that theyshouldn't be focusing on that path just yet, for someone that has been trainingfor five, 10 plus years, he has a good body.

[00:22:45] Composition is insulinsensitive. Once to build up a little bit more muscle or wants to get super leanfor a physique competition. I do think there's. Strategic use of carbs that canhelp optimize that. And that's where people are always asking me, like theyweren't focused on this point. Oh [00:23:00] 1% of the time where I'm like, youknow, we can talk about that, but it is really kind of cool outlier situationswhere most people, that there's some interesting, you know, evidence, someresearch that shows almost up to 90% of us adults have some degree of insulinresistance.

[00:23:17] ColinStuckert: I'm not surprised. I mean, if we're at 50% obesity andthen we're at an even higher rate of probably overweight, like it's

[00:23:22] KevinStock: just, and you look at, like, I look at the prediabetesdiabetes research and things like that, which said paint an ugly picture. But Ithink the picture is actually worse than that.

[00:23:31] Because a lot of times, like,we'll look at your blood sugar and say, my blood sugar is like, let's say it's85 right now. And I require just a tiny drop of insulin to keep it at 85. Well,there might be someone else who, who was not clinically pre-diabetic. Theirblood sugar is also 85, you know, postprandial just flat fast.

[00:23:50] And we'll just say,

[00:23:50] ColinStuckert: flash of insulin, keeping it

[00:23:52] KevinStock: and use a bucket of insulin and keep it at that level. So, sosome of it gets, you know, if you're not actually doing the right testing, alot of this insulin [00:24:00] resistance goes unnoticed. Uh, and the pictureis actually my point of view is if you're using a bucket of insulin to keep 85,like.

[00:24:07] You already are in insulinresistance, metabolic dysfunction, basically. Yeah. And

[00:24:12] ColinStuckert: doctors, I don't think test for that. It's the thing,that's sort of the problem,

[00:24:15] KevinStock: the pictures. And if you look at the stats, but I actuallythink it's worse than what the status.

[00:24:20] ColinStuckert: Yeah. And that's why they're not really diagnosing.

[00:24:22] I think it's what he talks aboutin that one book while we get sick is they might test something like glucoselevels or some other things. And I guess they might test fasting insulin. Idon't remember what the tests are. Not commonly. Yeah. Right.  

[00:24:35] KevinStock: and you know, faster glucose are basically the two standardones, which give you an idea, but it doesn't give you it's, it's almost by thetime that those are off, man, you're, you're already in a not good state.

[00:24:49] And I think, you know, fastenedinsulin testability. If I would say like one test, I'd be like, that's, thatshould be standard. I actually don't know why. Yeah. Because like, yeah. Yeah.And [00:25:00] it's, it's, it's helps much more predictive.

[00:25:03] ColinStuckert: Right. And it's because, I mean, it shows you, what isyour body doing when you're not eating food?

[00:25:06] Right. If it's out of whack,when you're not eating food, what do you think is happening when you areshoveling food in your face?

[00:25:12] KevinStock: You're faster than your body's pumping out a lot of insulin.Like that's already not a good situation. Cause you know, you shouldn't needthat much insulin to keep, you know, fast at baseline homeostatic loaves,right?

[00:25:24] ColinStuckert: Yeah. Yeah. So. There's so many different ways to go withthis trying like something that you just said that is good is we'll keeptalking about insulin. We're talking about glucose. The one thing that I, youbrought up when you said the 80, your blood sugar could be at 85. Yep. Now, doyou know the, how the levels work?

[00:25:41] Because I remember quotesspecifically by Mark Sisson saying that your body maintains about five grams. Aglucose at any given time. Yeah. How does that 85 number connect? Is that likea middle, like, I know there's some like ML level where it

[00:25:55] KevinStock: inverse.

[00:25:56] ColinStuckert: But it's five grams is about what most people [00:26:00]try to maintain.

[00:26:00] KevinStock: So the units on the blood glucose are nanograms permilliliter, I believe, but I would have to, I have to, I have to double checkthat, but you're right. There's like a, like a teaspoon of sugar in your bloodat any given time. It's very small amount and we eat 130 pounds of sugar onaverage a year. So if you just think about it,

[00:26:19] ColinStuckert: so if you eat, if you drink a Coke, right.

[00:26:23] It was like 50 grams now, 60,and I'm not like a small Coke, 50. This is how I think about it. Maybe I'mwrong. Maybe incorrect me by like, talking about some of the pathways, but. Youyou flood your system with 50 grams of sugar, right? Obviously some of thatwill go to fruit juice and that goes to your liver.

[00:26:37] So let's say maybe 25% isleftover as glucose floating around. Well, this is what happens. Your body'slike, okay, wait a second. We have all this extra glucose. This can't be in thebloodstream because once we have our five grants, that's where the insulincomes in as these little dump trucks or like transport ships and then shuttlethat glucose glucose go.

[00:26:57] Fat or liver, right. Orobviously glycogen, which is [00:27:00] another thing about like fitnesspeople, having such a different metabolic state that they could maybe have aCoke on a daily basis. Even it could be bad for them, but they would not showit in their fat, fat source in the body because they have other places

[00:27:11] KevinStock: to put it.

[00:27:12] Right.

[00:27:13] ColinStuckert: And so that kind of a simple understanding of how thatworks.

[00:27:15] KevinStock: Oh my goodness. It highlights one of the issues I think doesget. Not overseeing. So yeah, it kind of takes us into like this inflammationpath because this chronic inflammation, low level systemic inflammation is likethat. And insulin resistance are kind of like, like if you look at the chronicdiseases is what you see, you see insulin resistance and you say, yeah, You seesystemic chronic inflammation.

[00:27:37] You're like, where's thatinflammation coming from? And one of it is coming from this intracellularmechanism, meaning, okay, so you've got this insulin, it's trying to get thisglucose into cells cause it has to get out of the blood. Right? So why are yougoing to keep pumping up insulin? Cause it's got to get that sugar out of theblood and the cells are like, ah, we don't want it.

[00:27:53] That's why it has insulinresistance, but it forces it in. And the chemical pathways that process glucose[00:28:00] in cells get overwhelmed. And when these get overwhelmed, it createsreactive oxygen species or ROS, which basically are free radicals that causesintracellular damage and inflammation from the cell inside out.

[00:28:12] And we also there's one level ofwhere this. Carbohydrate poor glucose metabolism is causing a level of inflammationfrom an intracellular way out. And then we also get it from, you know, I thinka lot of this systemic inflammation is originating in the gut. So a lot ofthese plant based foods and not carbohydrates like.

[00:28:32] Themselves, but what comesprepared, it was the carbohydrates and a lot of these foods cause issues in thegut, cause this can lead to, you know, people call it intestinal permeabilityor leaky gut, which stimulates the immune system. And so you get this low levelof chronic inflammation, which is also correlated with insulin resistance.

[00:28:50] So, you know, those kinds ofthings to pass from the cellular inside, out of him, outside in his, uh, youknow, uh, carbs, doing a lot of

[00:28:58] ColinStuckert: damage. Yeah. So [00:29:00] that's interesting because nowthat makes me think of stress, which I think we should talk about next. Butyeah. So this is how I'm trying to, again, I want to get like the simplestlayman terms of way, thinking about those things.

[00:29:09] Because I feel like when peopleunderstand these pathways, it does pop up in your head every so often. Like ifyou're going to eat a huge bag of chips or whatever, you might like thinktwice, but it's like, If your body doesn't want to store this extra glucose andyou keep flooding it with glucose, you get insulin basically is what happens,right.

[00:29:26] As a byproduct, right? Insulinresistance is basically the more of these pathways that should work naturallybecause they should have kind of a measured level of carbs. Right. And like ourancestors didn't eat very many carbs. And when they did, it was usually kind ofin doses. Right. And like, we might find a thing, a honey.

[00:29:42] And we would Gorge, but then wewouldn't have anything for awhile. And this was a survival adaptation, right.Or we had fruit in season and then it was gone for the whole year. So, well, weconstantly do this on a regular basis. The extra glucose causes your body tolike overwork and do things that's not naturally made to do, [00:30:00] whichcreates some kind of, like you said, like a extra free, radical, or whatever,like, you know, it basically like stresses your body beyond a healthy stressand you get like an overflow, which then leads to the chronic disease.

[00:30:10] And you do that for 20, 30years. You get these diseases that is now that are now plaguing modern, modernman and woman. Right. I mean, probably

[00:30:17] KevinStock: a great way to put it. I mean, it was perfect right on. Andone of the things I think is worth mentioning is. Because they get a lot offear around. Okay. So you're saying eat a high protein, higher fat diet.

[00:30:27] And what about gluconeogenesisGenesis? Like it's been super demonized, but is one of the like most steadyways. Cause we need to keep glucose in the blood at this level. Right. So weneed to keep supplying glucose to the blood and you can do that by. You don'ttry and eat the right amount. Okay. That doesn't work.

[00:30:48] ColinStuckert: So you mean, so glyconutrients, can you define that?

[00:30:50] KevinStock: So gluconeogenesis is turning protein and fat, but most ofthe people think in the context of protein, protein into glucose, [00:31:00]right?

[00:31:00] ColinStuckert: So is it mostly protein? Cause I've always associate. Ilike when I hear that I'm thinking protein breakdown. Which is like the leastefficient way your wants your body wants to do it.

[00:31:08] Is their bar. Does your bodyprioritize fat then go to protein? Or was it some kind of like, mixed like,well, they'll burn protein here. If it's extra or like fat here, like how doesyour body determine that?

[00:31:16] KevinStock: Well, can you, Genesis is very, it happens at a veryconsistent rate. So like all the time, constant

[00:31:21] ColinStuckert: fuel, like constant work

[00:31:25] KevinStock: very much just like.

[00:31:27] So you're just like yourbloodstream needs a constant level of glucose in it. Gluconeogenesis having acost amount, almost like it's just designed to steadily supply blood sugar. Uh,so it is inefficient to turn protein into glucose. Definitely a much moreefficient just to, you know, eat the glucose itself.

[00:31:44] But just cause it's inefficientdoesn't mean it's necessarily bad or, you know, cause it is happening naturallyall the time. And if it was like inherently bad, it wouldn't just be happeningnaturally all the time. Uh, and it's one of the things in that protein Arfawrote about recently is I went into pretty good [00:32:00] depth, probably moreso than people would care to read about, about this gluconeogenesis pathway,turning protein into glucose, turning fat into glucose, uh, cause that's what alot of the concerns come, especially from someone to keep the geneticbackground, which a lot of people have, you know, familiar with or tried anddone it.

[00:32:14] They limit protein becausethey're afraid of this gluconeogenesis pathway, which, you know, can you eattoo much protein? Potentially, but

[00:32:24] ColinStuckert: I think so tidy hits in far before that. Yeah. You know,but, so why are they afraid of gluconeogenesis? Is it. I was under theimpression that most people in Quito are worried about not being in ketosis.

[00:32:34] Does gluconeogenesis somehowaffect that

[00:32:36] KevinStock: you eat a ton of protein? I can decrease your level ofketones

[00:32:39] ColinStuckert: because it can spike insulin. It's a little insulinogenicand

[00:32:43] KevinStock: yep. And so, I mean, that's a concern. If you're on, ifsomeone wants to keep ketones in a certain depth of nutritional ketosis wouldbe too much protein and it can knock them out of their, of their depths thatthey want to shoot for.

[00:32:55] Uh, you know, a lot of timesthey'll be a to ask, like, why do you want to be at that depth? You know, and

[00:32:59] ColinStuckert: so the [00:33:00] question in certain circumstances, agrade, right? Like medical grade versus just lifestyle. Cause that's completelydifferent thing. You know, I think they sometimes confuse the forest for thetrees.

[00:33:08] KevinStock: So I'm like, what's, what's your real goal. Sometimes it, ifsomeone says like, look, I know if my, you know, if I'm in. One millimole or,you know, nutritional ketosis, better brain function. I've tested it on myokay, fine. You know, whatever. But usually that's not the case. Usually it'sbecause of a body composition.

[00:33:24] They're like, they think oftheir, and this theory of nutritional ketosis, they're burning more fat. Sothey're going to get to their body composition goals. But usually it's not thecase. That level of nutritional ketosis usually is overstated. So usually Iwould want to get to someone with like, okay, why do you want to get that?

[00:33:38] And is that really. Giving youthe benefit that you want, like you said, sometimes it makes sense. People likecertain cancers, epilepsy, you know, it makes sense to be in certain depths ofnutritional ketosis, but for most people it's to fear. And one of the thingsthey fear is like cortisol. They think if you're in order to initiate thegluconeogenesis process, you need cortisol.

[00:33:59] ColinStuckert: They don't like [00:34:00] that idea. Cause it's stressfulemotionally, the fact game. But I mean, of course I'll also is in your body.Like, it's how you wake up in the morning, right? Like you need it. It's a,it's a, it's a hormone, but it's just one that you have too much of it justlike insulin. If we didn't have insulin, we die.

[00:34:12] Right. Like that's, that's whatpeople understand. But if we have way too much insulin and we're just, we'regoing to die, it's just gonna take.

[00:34:16] KevinStock: Yeah. And I mean, the thing is, like I talked about in thearticle is that you actually don't need the course. I'll just turn ongluconeogenesis. So if your blood glucose drops to a certain level, The bodydoesn't want to die.

[00:34:31] So cortisol will spike andrelease. That'll at least glucose from the liver into the blood to re normalizeyour blood sugar levels, but gluconeogenesis turns on or that hits. So thisbasically that safety

[00:34:46] ColinStuckert: guard plan,

[00:34:47] KevinStock: that backup plan, that safety guard is not gluconeogenesis.Is on before that it doesn't require, it doesn't require that to turn on.

[00:34:55] And so there are a lot of fearsaround it are largely unfounded, even right. [00:35:00] People that like,there's this people that you like, the maximum limit you can eat is 40% of yourcalories, which. I be way more than that. So even some of these things thatpeople think it's a kind of like nutritional dog months, like I question, causeI eat more protein than most people that eat meat based diets.

[00:35:17] I probably eat at least 40% ofmy calories from protein.

[00:35:20] ColinStuckert: The higher end there's a hundred gathers have beenobserved. 55% is the highest I think they've found, you know, but that was, andthat's of course over a period of time. So that means they're consistentlyeating around half for calories. From animal foods.

[00:35:33] And what you see is like a lotof the range swung like the 30 to 35% range, the most common. Yeah. And I feellike for me getting to 35% range is like a slog at times. Like it's a lot ofprotein proteins, you know? Yeah. And so, but I'm still aiming for that causelike I, okay. Not afraid of protein. And I know that when I optimize it, I'mkind of balancing the protein to energy ratio.

[00:35:53] We had dr. Nyman on recently andhe talks about this and he just. I love that idea of like protein versusenergy, how to balance it and everything. It's a [00:36:00] very simple, cleanway. I recommend everyone to that show.

[00:36:02] KevinStock: Yeah. And the book that he has on that, I'd rather I've readtheir book. They sent it to me and, uh, it's a good book.

[00:36:07] Like it, it it's a good

[00:36:09] ColinStuckert: book. Simplifies it. A lot of graphics. Yeah,

[00:36:11] KevinStock: exactly. It doesn't go far.

[00:36:13] ColinStuckert: So we were talking about carbs. We talked a little aboutprotein. Let's uh, I mean, carbs is good though. I think we covered a lot oflike, insulin is connected. I mean, Yeah, carbs and insulin and carbs and glucose.

[00:36:25] Those are the most importantthings to consider. Right? Obviously, weightlifting, lifestyle, stress, allthose other things will affect. Everything insulin, cortisol levels, stresslevels, and all these other things and inflammation. But like the number onething you said for most people is if you're eating 300 carbohydrate grams ofcarbohydrates a day, especially if it has a lot of seed oils and sugar andrefined grains and other things that cause issues, in addition to eating 300grams carbs, like you're literally overloading your body with things that ithas to process out.

[00:36:53] Yeah. Right. It's just like,imagine if you overdose on some kind of poison, they pump your stomach full ofcharcoal is always what I think [00:37:00] about. So like, That would have beenon accident, right. And they're trying to correct it with charcoal, whateveryou're choosing to put 300 grams in some cases of poison, especially the waythat some of these carbs come in our modern food system, but some of them arestraight poison seed, oil, oil, sugar, nothing good.

[00:37:14] Nothing, no nutritional valuewhatsoever. No vitamins or minerals. Right. You're putting that in your body onpurpose. What do you think's going to happen? Like breaking down, you know, butaside from that, like most of my listeners are probably going to be semi healthconscious. They're not going to use all day.

[00:37:28] Right? So like you talked about,you get a lot of these questions. People are afraid of this afraid of that. Like,what are some of the most common questions around carbs and, or like strugglesand, and like what, like what advice do you give to those people? Generally?

[00:37:39] KevinStock: You know what, I think I try to boil this down because I waslike, what really is the concern?

[00:37:43] And I think the biggest concernfor people is, well, one they realize, okay, carbs. Aren't the best thing. Thepoison is probably in the dose, which I agree, but poison is probably the dose.And so when people are asking me about carbs, they're usually, especially ifthey're already health conscious, a lot of times are eating meat, [00:38:00]meat based diet.

[00:38:00] The underlying thing I thinkthey're trying to get up at is how can I eat this meat based diet and have itfit into my life

[00:38:09] ColinStuckert: with carbs? Like have some carbs.

[00:38:11] KevinStock: Exactly. Because a lot of times they'll be like, I want toeat healthy. I want to do the right thing. But if I can't go be a foody, if Ican't have cake at my son's birthday party, if I can't have a glass of wine onan anniversary, it's like, I like, how do I make.

[00:38:25] Carbs, how do I allow for carbsto be into my

[00:38:27] ColinStuckert: life and also gain weight

[00:38:28] KevinStock: without undoing all

[00:38:29] ColinStuckert: the benefits? Exactly. Without either gaining weight or toget to my next level of weight loss goals. Right? Like it seems like that isprobably common. I mean, you have some people that want to feel good about theirchoices.

[00:38:38] They're already lean. I knowthose people like where they're so obsessed about anything. Cause they, theydon't want to, like, they think it's just going to destroy their health. Right?Like, but there's a quote that I remember earlier we were talking, Oh, quote,7,000 or whatever, but he basically said the physically fit can enjoy theirvices.

[00:38:51] And I always took that quote tonot say. You should get physically fit so you can eat crap food. I always tookit to say for me, if I [00:39:00] eat this ice cream, or if I binge on thisthing here and there. I don't need to obsess about it. I don't need to haveshame and guilt around it, which is very common. And I don't need to have someexcuse where I'm going to start my diet next week or my diet's ruined.

[00:39:11] So I'm just going to like,basically do this forever. Like always really bad ideas that come up. So itsounds like that's probably,

[00:39:16] KevinStock: you have a foundational structure. And small deviations onthe foundation. Aren't going to have longterm negative

[00:39:23] ColinStuckert: consequences got benefits too.

[00:39:26] KevinStock: And if you keep that foundation, then a lot of times aregood.

[00:39:29] One of the things that I quote, there'sthis guy I'm going to say, maybe it's Clayton Christianson, but a lot, whoeverwas, he said, well, for him, a hundred percent is easier than 98%. Meaning, youknow?

[00:39:41] ColinStuckert: Yeah.

[00:39:41] KevinStock: For some people that's an example for me, like. With alcohol,I don't drink. And for me, I had the opportunity to drink comes up every singleweek, you know, and it's just drinker.

[00:39:53] ColinStuckert: I drank

[00:39:54] KevinStock: throughout college and in dental school and in dental schoolis when I quit. And that's when I started like [00:40:00] doing more coachingand things like, like health, nutritional coaching. So this is kind of adichotomy once I got rid of that and helped. But.

[00:40:06] ColinStuckert: For

[00:40:06] KevinStock: me, it's just easier to say, you know, I don't drink ratherthan I'm not drinking tonight because I'm not drinking tonight can make adecision every single time.

[00:40:15] I mean, that's it situationwhere it's like, I just don't drink. It's just easier, but not everyone becausethe opposite could be not the opposite. But the other truth, I think, is thatfor a lot of people, 95%. Can be very doable, as long as they don't, you haveto be a hundred percent being as long as they can have

[00:40:34] ColinStuckert: like one drink or whatever that works for you.

[00:40:36] KevinStock: They're like as long as I can have, you know, that chocolateat the end of the night or that class of wine or whatever, I can eat 95%, youknow, solid all the time. But if you make me do it 1% standard American dietand that's totally fine. And so there's a lot of self awareness. I think thathas to come into nutrition.

[00:40:54] It's like, what kind of personare you like? And like for me, alcohol tend to be, I just like to make that ahundred [00:41:00] percent, zero choice. It's just easier for me. But when itcomes to nutrition, I've done it so long enough that I think I can do 95, five.And it would be no big deal because I'm not, why don't you kill the cravings?

[00:41:10] Why don't you fix that inrelationship with food that we were talking about? It's much easier to pull offthe 95, five or 90 10 or whatever it might be. The

[00:41:16] ColinStuckert: problem. We've been a hundred for a while, you know, whenyou've been a Hunter, right.

[00:41:20] KevinStock: In terms of when people are, they still have that, it's likethe alcoholic, that's still addicted.

[00:41:24] It's like, well, I just needone. Okay. Really one leads to

[00:41:29] ColinStuckert: they're still maintaining. They haven't actually gone

[00:41:31] KevinStock: back to her. So, yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:34] ColinStuckert: So that's actually a really good point. I'll give you myexample for alcohol. So I never liked it, but I drank a few times here andthere I've been drunk a few times.

[00:41:42] You know, it was kind of fun orwhatever, but it was just like, As I got older and I just didn't see the point.I didn't wanna spend $10 on a, you know, in downtown Austin, $10 for a mixeddrink or whatever, like, you know, and being entrepreneurial. I'm like, I knowwhat that costs you, dude. No, you not getting away with that to me.

[00:41:58] And so for me, it became easierand [00:42:00] almost a badge of pride. It's like, I don't drink alcohol. Idon't like it. I have no reason to drink it for social reasons because I have,I'm totally fine sitting here being myself. And so for me, it was a little bitof reverse thing. Now, if I had any substance abuse issues whatsoever, it hasto be a hundred percent.

[00:42:14] Yeah. You know, like, andeveryone's on a different range. Like maybe you could do one glass of wine. Itdoesn't ever yeah. Lead to any binges or crazy things for me. It wasn't that atall, it was. You know, more of a simplicity thing, even a little bit of anidentity thing for me. And so, like I said, it became easier.

[00:42:27] I don't drink, I don't have toexplain myself. It doesn't matter. You know,

[00:42:31] KevinStock: you know, one of the huge things that is not talked about isthe identity thing. When someone identifies as something that's when realchange happens. And so if someone identifies as like a non drinker, It's mucheasier for them to stick with not drinking.

[00:42:45] The biggest reason why I stoppeddrinking was it was just so on aligned with everything I wanted to do in life,because I could not justify three hours of Fon or five hours of fun and give upthe entire next day. Yeah. Cause that's what it was doing. It would just wreckme the next day or the next two [00:43:00] days.

[00:43:00] And from a training standpoint,maybe even like the next five days, I'm like even I had for one of my friends,like. You know, it, it just didn't justify it for me. And so it was just easierto make the identity that, yeah, I agree. I'm just not a drinker because itdoesn't align with what I want to do with

[00:43:18] ColinStuckert: life.

[00:43:18] Absolutely. Right. And it showsyou how much of the social pressure there is in our society where you have tolike, have a good reason why you don't drink it because it's so freakingnormal. Right. But so the other point I wanted to bring up. I eat carbs andI've been eating more carbs cause I've been doing carnivore most of 2020.

[00:43:36] I did like strict 69 days,something like that. And I started like adding in certain things. And what I'verealized is my relationship now to carbs and kind of cheat foods here. Andthere is literally. An enjoyment factor. No other thing. I'm not optimizing forweight gain or loss or this or that. Like I'm down too.

[00:43:53] And like, if I let it go toofar, and if I see some kind of fat showing up in the mid section, like if Ilook in the mirror and I'm looking at maybe a little bit, not as lean as I'dlike [00:44:00] to, that's an easy trigger for me to kind of like down, downregulate. But again, this works for me. There's so many different levels here,but I don't, I think the point is also, I don't look at carbs as necessary foranything I'm doing.

[00:44:10] Right when I don't have anycarbs and I'm just eating like straight fat and protein steaks, I feelcompletely fine. Right. When I have a little bit carbs and whatever, I feelcompletely fine. And then when I do a little bit too much carb, I don't feelgood and I don't look as good. And then I kind of like have that it butts up tothe upper limit and then I have to readjust.

[00:44:27] You know, and it's like, but youhave to get that point. Like it takes a long time.

[00:44:30] KevinStock: Yeah. Interestingly that I've seen is everyone has like, Icall it the thermostat and you can have that thermostat where you see like,look, I just saw this. Maybe sometimes it's the scale. Sometimes it's themirror. We're like, that's not me.

[00:44:43] It's the identity thing. And sothat gets you back on a lot of times, people need to fix their thermostat to belike, They need to recalibrate what they want. Usually it's raised theirstandards a little bit, but

[00:44:53] ColinStuckert: yes, that's connected to identity

[00:44:54] KevinStock: exactly saying that's why it's something that it's not talkedabout enough, which is not the biggest [00:45:00] thing for someone stayingwith a healthy way of living is you just need to identify with that healthyperson.

[00:45:05] If you start identifying withthe healthy person, then, then you'll, you'll get the results. Just stick withit. Cause you realize that's who you are. And then the benefits reinforce whoyou are. Yeah. So yeah, I'm with you. Like when I think about carbs, I thinkabout it in two ways. One is as supplement for training and

[00:45:22] ColinStuckert: yep.

[00:45:23] KevinStock: That's only in specific times for specific people trying toget specific goals. So it's really that outlier case, but either as a sub, Ithink of it as a supplement, not a food or as an enjoyment entertainment, likeyou just said, I don't think about it as like nutrition. Cause usually you'renot getting that much of your tuition out of it anyways.

[00:45:40] And it's like, okay, the dose isthe poison. And so I've gotten smarter through some of these experiments toknow which doses I can avoid. Poisonous toxicity, so to speak. Yeah. So I canhave a little bit of this if I want, like, is a good example. Cause it doesn'thave a whole lot of the Fido toxins. It has some like some, but [00:46:00] it'spretty pure source.

[00:46:01] It's got the sweetness, but Iknow it was like, look, I gotta have a tablespoon after a workout. If I'm in abolting cycle or severe cut and I do fine. But if I have like, But one poundthat sweet potato that's too, you know? So, so certain things you learn togauge page and everyone has different tolerances.

[00:46:18] And so, you know, I do thinkcarbs can, can be, and probably are a part of most people's diet and. One ofthe things that really turns me off is some of the dogma that people burning upa lot of the time. Cause it's very discouraging for someone like we were justtalking about that wants to do 95%. But as long as I can be 90% carnivore and

[00:46:36] ColinStuckert: 10%, they say it's not carnivores.

[00:46:39] And then people did thisexactly.

[00:46:41] KevinStock: To me. It doesn't no matter what a lot of people need thatfeeling of community and that identity to identify like just, you know, let meidentify as something and it helps stick with it. But. You know, some of thedogmas, ostracizing people and making success harder.

[00:46:58] ColinStuckert: Well, we can fix that.

[00:46:59] I mean, you [00:47:00] shouldwrite about it. I'll do videos about it, you know, with doing podcasts aboutit. So I

[00:47:02] KevinStock: started noticing that one of the impetuses for the carvearticle that I wrote a year ago was that, and

[00:47:08] ColinStuckert: I'm to open it up a little bit, to open it

[00:47:10] KevinStock: up a bit more. What's interesting is so dr. Paul selidinostarted talking about more carbohydrates.

[00:47:14] ColinStuckert: Well, he's doing honey now, right? It's funny. Isn't it?This way? Everyone's like, yeah. Saudi goes through doing honey.

[00:47:19] KevinStock: I could like, should I do that? Can I do

[00:47:21] ColinStuckert: that? She's just so funny.

[00:47:22] KevinStock: It's funny. It's interesting. Because within the small Carvercommunity, then it creates divide. What? I don't know. Cause I, I don't knowwhat I need to talk to Paul about where you stand.

[00:47:33] I don't think he makes it soundlike you have put some time on the whole says something. It's like, look inorder to optimize your diet. You have to have honey, you have to have Oregon's,you'd have to have this, this and this. And then people are like, Holy shit. Itbecomes a lot when I'm like. That's not ancestral eating, right.

[00:47:48] ColinStuckert: Like optimize everything. Right. We couldn't have donethat in nature.

[00:47:53] KevinStock: So I like to not have like, Oh, you have to eat carbs. Or,but I think you can't eat carbs and still very much thrive. [00:48:00] And so,you know, some of this dialogue I think is probably hopefully helpful for some

[00:48:03] ColinStuckert: people. Yeah, well, I think it's a good place to wrap up.

[00:48:06] It hit about an hour. I willhave links to the carb article. I also want to read that protein article. SoI'll have to get that from you. And where can people learn more about you andwhat you're doing?

[00:48:15] KevinStock: Uh, just, you know, I write a weekly newsletter and that'skind of where I recap if I have anything, you know, if I created anything orjust other interesting things I found during week, but I usually put the beststuff in the newsletter, which is called the Saturday seven newsletter.

[00:48:28] And to anyone you should getthat it's free. It's on my it's on my website. Uh, Well, I mean, you couldsound the meat, that health, which has all kinds of free guides of anythingfrom getting started into a carnivore diet, to fat loss, to, you know, healthdanger of a plant based diet. Uh, and my website, it's just Kevin stock thatIO.

[00:48:48] We can sign up for a newsletter,read articles, read the latest protein article.

[00:48:52] ColinStuckert: Yeah. A few weeks of read it. It took them nine months towrite it and take me through, sorry.

[00:48:57] KevinStock: No, it's only an hour to read and maybe, but yeah, it took menine [00:49:00] months to write man. That's why I love books. I love, I gavehim a book like.

[00:49:04] Reading the addict. Cause I'mlike someone spent their last probably 10 years writing a book, maybe theirwhole career

[00:49:11] ColinStuckert: learning about it, their whole life. Then putting into abook.

[00:49:13] KevinStock: Exactly. I'm like you get someone's life experience in a fewhours. Like that's invaluable.

[00:49:19] ColinStuckert: I read lots and lots of audio books and I've been hittinga hundred books a year for almost five years now.

[00:49:25] KevinStock: I that's, that's impressive. I've probably maybe half that.

[00:49:28] ColinStuckert: Yeah,

[00:49:29] KevinStock: I gotta get on your level.

[00:49:30] ColinStuckert: You need audio books? Cause like, you know, I can walk andread or I can drive and read, like you can't replace that. I'm not like sittingin front of a Kindle or a book for like five hours a day. Like as much as Iwant to.

[00:49:40] I aspire to that. But Kevin, Iappreciate you coming on. It's been a blast. And then, so maybe protein roundthree. We'll talk about protein. When that comes out. We talked about it alittle bit, but um,

[00:49:48] KevinStock: yeah. Yeah, there's a lot. There's a, there's a lot more onthe protein that we could dive into a lot of more protein,

[00:49:53] ColinStuckert: but you know, before, before we break, what are just a fewquick, rapid fire, like wasting about this because.

[00:50:00] [00:50:00] I feel like mostpeople needing more protein need a PR like obviously watch the carbs. Like wetalked about. And then modularly fat based on goals and whatever. Right? Solike within that realm, like what are some of the rapid fire kind of takeawaysfrom kind of the carbon just general, you know how to be a flexible carnival,for example.

[00:50:17] KevinStock: Yeah. I think the biggest takeaways are one create thefoundation. First. If you don't have the foundation, then you're going to be introuble when you start messing with carbs, because carbs do make things morecomplicated. But if you have a solid foundation, you can start playing withcards, but that foundation is this relationship with food and that.

[00:50:35] You can step down into that,like slowly eliminate things you can dive right into a meat based diet,different things, different strokes for different folks, but build a foundationthat's quick bite on animal-based food, right? Yep. High protein, high fat.Little carb to all the way to no carbon. So you've really kill addictions fromthat testing.

[00:50:55] CaRMS see what works. See what doesn't.The best thing I would recommend [00:51:00] is starting with single ingredient,whole food plants, fruits. You know, roots, which would be tubers, uh, thingslike sweet potatoes, see how they affect you and see how much, like a littlebit versus a lot of it. Cause once you have that foundation, you'll be able tohave a much better sense of this foods.

[00:51:20] Okay.

[00:51:20] ColinStuckert: This, your body

[00:51:21] KevinStock: responds exactly. A lot of times when you're already all,when there's all kinds of problems, you don't even realize those sensitivities

[00:51:26] ColinStuckert: and single ingredient. You said, what do you mean by that?

[00:51:28] KevinStock: Single ingredient would be like, uh, you know, if you have a grapethat's one ingredient, right?

[00:51:33] You can go pick it off a treepiece of broccoli.

[00:51:35] ColinStuckert: Versus like a, a bar that has 20 ingredients or some other

[00:51:38] KevinStock: things. I mean, when you start eating anything that you'regoing to buy at the grocery store, that's not like on the outside, like it'sgot an ingredient list, the ingredient list. Well, first of all, if you, if youhave a problem with it, you're not going to know like, Oh, what was it?

[00:51:51] You know, like what, what was,what was the ingredient? And I mean, if you're getting single ingredients, it'slike, you're not eating processed food, you're eating real food, I'll call it.[00:52:00] And then if people want flexibility, Just objectively assess. Howdoes that flexibility affect your life positively and negatively?

[00:52:08] Like makes it more enjoyable,this aspect of your life that's important, but if it wrecks you like alcoholdoes for me for an entire day that objectively upset, you know, take anassessment of that. Cause that's something I want to do on a regular basis. Andthen I am a true believer in, uh, Most people need to put on a little bit ofmuscle mass.

[00:52:26] And I think that will, if,especially if there's already a degrees of insulin resistance, you know, if youwant to start getting back into real health, muscle mass, low carb for a while,build that foundation, those are, would be the two sound bites that I wouldreally, you know, focus on.

[00:52:40] ColinStuckert: Yeah, that's great.

[00:52:41] And to reinforce what you'resaying about people need to. Build it for themselves, from themselves. Theywant Colin or Kevin or whoever, some fitness celebrity, and they want, theywant that person to say, this is what you should do. Right. But it's like, howthe hell are we going to say what you should do?

[00:52:57] You know what I mean? You know,your variables, you and I just talked about personally about like, [00:53:00]why one of us might do this or might do that. We may not both drink alcohol,but the reasons why we're completely different. Right? So if I took yourreasons why you don't drink alcohol and I put them into my life, That they justdidn't want to work.

[00:53:11] Right. You understood what I'msaying? And that's what people are trying to do. You're trying to takesomething. Somebody is doing no idea of the reasons why, and literally that'sreally why humans do anything is the why. Right. You have to figure that outfor yourself. Now

[00:53:24] KevinStock: you do the, one of the questions I get all the time and itused to be a pet peeve, but I don't understand where it's coming from.

[00:53:30] Is people like, well, what doyou do? And I'm like, I'll tell you what I do, but

[00:53:35] ColinStuckert: I do. It's probably more interesting

[00:53:37] KevinStock: why I do it, or if you should do it, like, just cause I doit. I'm like, yeah, unless you're like a male in their mid thirties, it's trainmost of her life, but low carb, her whole life has the same goals as I havesame kind of basic tolerances.

[00:53:49] It may make no sense. Like justone quick example is. After about two years of eating just me and I did someblood work. Nice. My ferritin was high. Okay. It's a fair 10. [00:54:00] It'sit stores iron in your body. And it was an, it was like the one outlier levelwasn't really sure about. I was like, man, that doesn't, I don't know why thatwould be hot.

[00:54:07] It's usually high because of asecondary inflammatory because of an inflammatory thing. I'm like, man, I'm notinflamed at all. I did CRP testing. It was like undetectable, no inflammation.And one thing led to the next, I got a genetic test hereditary hemochromatosis,which is basically a genetic polymorphism that makes me more genetically proneto excessive iron absorption.

[00:54:28] So. I had cut out coffee, but Ibrought coffee back into my diet with a little bit of cream, cause that canhelp inhibit some iron absorption. But that doesn't mean I'm telling people togo drink coffee with cream, because I think a lot of times it can be negativefor most people, but it's the context of, I mean, that's kind of an outlierexample, but to drive home, the point is what I do is not necessarily, probablynot what everyone should do.

[00:54:51] ColinStuckert: Right. And you actually just diagnosed your own health andyou, you prescribed a medicine for your body. Right. I think about that.Everybody [00:55:00] understands that you don't take somebody else'sprescriptions. I mean, that could literally kill you right. Yet. We like tothink of food. It's just this blanket category.

[00:55:07] If I can just do what everyoneelse does and there's like one way to eat or whatever, and it's just not trueat all. That's a great place to wrap up. So everything will be in links. And Ihope everyone enjoyed the show and we've got a lot of value here. Appreciateit.

[00:55:19] KevinStock: Yeah. Thanks for having. Wow. Please always remember that themembers of the ancestral mind podcast are not in fact medical professionals.

[00:55:30] They're not doctors, they're notnutritionists. They are simply providing this entertainment for you to do yourown research and. To entertain yourselves. So please consult a physician beforechanging your diet. Not everything works for everybody and make sure you alwaysdo your own research on everything you hear on this show and outside.

[00:55:52] ColinStuckert: Hey, everybody calling here. Thanks for listening to thatshow. I want to let you know about my newest podcast over at escapingfragility. The show about building a [00:56:00] life for yourself, being safe,being secure, having a plan B so that if this crazy world of 2020. Or getsworse, which I love the numbers are suggesting.

[00:56:10] It will then you and your familywill be protected. A lot of my content for my personal brand has been focusedon giving people the knowledge, the expertise or skills, and just the awarenessof some of the craziness that's going on so that they can protect themselves sothat they can fight back so that they can be civilly disobedient so that we canstymie them ever encroaching spread of government and of corporate.

[00:56:30] And political agenda. If morecitizens do not stand up, fight back, speak up. There's going to be nothingleft to protect. And I don't like fear-mongering and I'm generally optimisticperson, but 2020 has stressed me out at first. It didn't. But then it did whenI really saw it was going on. When I read a little bit between the lines andeven now the craziness is continuing.

[00:56:49] And I don't see it letting upanytime soon, the masses are too easily manipulated. And so I'm more concernedwhat's gonna happen in 2021 when the next flu season comes through and anotherCorona viruses, [00:57:00] weaponized, and then who knows what's going tohappen? Travel restrictions, mandatory vaccines, chipped, and proud of likecattle.

[00:57:05] People think it can't happen.They stick their head down, but they did in mouse, China, they did installmentsRussia. They did and Nazi Germany, and then it was too late. And who pays theprice? It's always, always, always the citizens. That are having faith and thatare just hoping things get better. They're the ones that always pay the price.

[00:57:23] So the first thing we can do isprotect ourselves and our family have a plan B, have an escape option, and thenwe can help others head over to call them a coach, get on the M fivenewsletter. You'll get all the shows every week and you can also find me onYouTube and iTunes or Spotify or Google play.

[00:57:36] Get prepared before it's toolate.


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